MMO thoughts

[Chieling]

Hey guys!

A few of yas know this - Im working on my own MMO from the ground up. Im not part of a big corp, but this is me and a few partners building a game platform and then the game itself. we have a renderer that we have chosen, and now we are building... well..... the rest. While this means we are unfunded, it DOES mean we can make this game however we like

The reason WHY im mentioning this is because I would like to hear what people are looking for in a MMO, what would grab your interest, what would keep you playing past the first few months and what would keep you going when u hit max level.

You can answer this post if you like, or you can email me at pyoskowitz@winterleafentertainment.com

thanks for the input, itll help me see how close to "on track" that the game is going.

Chieling

[Didek]

Hi,

While I think it's interesting that you are asking this question, what makes me wonder is how you are planning to design the tech necessary when you don't have a high level vision yet. Getting a positive churn rates is one of the most difficult challenges when making an mmo? The traditional model is to keep people interested by releasing new content and expansion packs. However this is also something that's expensive so do, so you might want to build your pipeline accordingly.

I'd advice you to take a look at what you want to make, because in this particular industry the customer does not always know what they want. Sure, they want to stay entertained. It's the how where everyone seems to disagree.

[Chieling]

actually, we DO have a high level vision of the game itself. I just dont see a reason NOT to ask for thoughts and opinions. There are times that someone has come up with an AWESOME idea on something that we were still milling around. IMO keeping the "vision" to a small group doesnt allow for growth. that does, however, mean that I also have to know when to call it. We have a list of "locked" items that arent goin to change and a list of stuff that im still fairly open on. if someone happened to hit on one of those topics, it would give me something to think about. funny thing is, iv posted this in a couple of forums, and as opinionated as i was expecting the answers to be, i hardly ever get feedback. its all good we got plenty to do as is!

[Vendrix]

I'm just going to throw some things out there, some are even problems with no proposed solution. Just my random thoughts on MMOs over the years.

Ever since EQ, it seems like MMOs don't actually 'start' until you attain max level, at which point you group up for raids. Almost everything in the games makes you want to be max level and raid, whether it's the draw of grouping with 10-20 other people or the allure of shiny purple items. Casual players don't even want to be in the mid-levels, they're just stuck there for longer. No one has ever played an MMO and thought, "wow, level 27 is amazing! Now I can [insert something cool here]!" and then stayed that level for a week or month. In every game, when you hit level 27 your only thought is, "now I just need 28 and only X more levels til max, then I can raid!" That's why crazy people play 36 hours straight through in new games, to get max level before anyone else and if the lower levels are just filler (really, you learn to play the game control/mechanic wise in the first 10-15 levels), then why even have them. Just let people start at 50 and be done with it.

If I have to zone into anything, other than a dungeon, in your game - I'll quit immediately. You should be looking at the good/bad things of existing games. If you find yourself emulating the bad, you're doing it wrong. At this point, new and original ideas for game features are hard to come by, but there is always room for improvement of some poorly implemented ones.

EQ, DaoC, AoC, WoW, WAR - all the same theme, do something different.

If your game is going to have PvP and you make it two opposing factions, I'm going to hate you. Good vs. bad is lame, the biggest ball-drop came from Warhammer. That tabletop game has around 12 races, none of which are buddy-buddy with each other. High Elves hate the Skaven that hate the Undead that hate the Lizardmen that hate the Dwarves and so on. Dual faction PvP is played out.

Done for now, back to work.

[Chieling]

Ever since EQ,........ Just let people start at 50 and be done with it.
thats been a huge discussion actually. part of what we have been coming up (answer-wise) is content more interesting that XP grinding or quests that involve "go kill X and come back". the other part is pre-50 raids. will that work? no clue yet. does that mean that there is a huge amount of content to be created? oh yeah. while we have disucssed that, i can see WHY XP grinding or basic quests are a standard in most games. its easy and u can crank them out fast.

If I have to zone into anything, other than a dungeon, in your game - I'll quit immediately. .....but there is always room for improvement of some poorly implemented ones.
thats a hard one man.... UNFORTUNATELY thats a engine issue. if u are talking about a WoW like continuous world... man, if i could get someone to work with the engine we got an do that with it, that would be awesome. unfortunately, the world has to be broken into zones (old EQ style). thats not us.... thats an engine limitation. now, if u are talking about instancing... thats something totally different.

EQ, DaoC, AoC, WoW, WAR - all the same theme, do something different.
can u expand on that?

If your game is going to have PvP and you make it two opposing factions, ......Dual faction PvP is played out.
will it have PvP? yes. dual factions? no. 8 races, 8 factions. Does everyone hate each other.... that depends on a number of things that can be determined in game. (at least according to plan)

[Vendrix]

Ever since EQ,........ Just let people start at 50 and be done with it.
thats been a huge discussion actually. part of what we have been coming up (answer-wise) is content more interesting that XP grinding or quests that involve "go kill X and come back". the other part is pre-50 raids. will that work? no clue yet. does that mean that there is a huge amount of content to be created? oh yeah. while we have disucssed that, i can see WHY XP grinding or basic quests are a standard in most games. its easy and u can crank them out fast.

I've played P&P (pen and paper) role-playing games for a long time, like D&D, and never at level 3 did I think, "wow, only 17 more levels to max and that's when the good times start!" Some P&P games don't even have leveling systems, you just gain XP that you can spend on character progression. I wonder how a game would/could work that didn't use level advancement as the first carrot on a stick. A game where when you/group/raid killed something it translated into points you could use to advance stats or buy spells or invest in alternate advancement/talents.

As for keeping it fun at all levels, that one is tough... really tough. Good luck.

If I have to zone into anything, other than a dungeon, in your game - I'll quit immediately. .....but there is always room for improvement of some poorly implemented ones.
thats a hard one man.... UNFORTUNATELY thats a engine issue. if u are talking about a WoW like continuous world... man, if i could get someone to work with the engine we got an do that with it, that would be awesome. unfortunately, the world has to be broken into zones (old EQ style). thats not us.... thats an engine limitation. now, if u are talking about instancing... thats something totally different.

Yea, like WoW. Continuous worlds are the new black. If you can help it, don't go back to plaid.

EQ, DaoC, AoC, WoW, WAR - all the same theme, do something different.
can u expand on that?

If your game is based on Warriors who are supposed to get hit in the face, because they have the most health/defense who are getting healed by Clerics/Priests standing behind them doing nothing but spamming out heals and robe-wearing casters - it's played out. Enough with the sword & sorcery, find a new genre to explore.

If your game is going to have PvP and you make it two opposing factions, ......Dual faction PvP is played out.
will it have PvP? yes. dual factions? no. 8 races, 8 factions. Does everyone hate each other.... that depends on a number of things that can be determined in game. (at least according to plan)

Good.

Also, one more thing, don't put your content on repeat. Fucking, fuck, the whole "do this raid zone, beat it, then do it again on HEROIC to really beat it for the same items" can suck a dick.

[Chieling]

I've played P&P (pen and paper) role-playing games for a long time, like D&D, and never at level 3 did I think, "wow, ..........you could use to advance stats or buy spells or invest in alternate advancement/talents.
we've considered that, however we got into the arguement that most people are idiots and couldnt spec themselves correctly unless they were given a website or strict rules. "i took all the skills... now im lvl15 with 15 skills at lvl1. why am i dieing so much?"


Also, one more thing, don't put your content on repeat. Fucking, fuck, the whole "do this raid zone, beat it, then do it again on HEROIC to really beat it for the same items" can suck a dick.
To me thats too WoW like. i hate WoW to a point where id rather put my junk in a meat grinder than play it. wont happen.

[Coldwynd]

Originally Posted by Vendrix

Ever since EQ, it seems like MMOs don't actually 'start' until you attain max level, at which point you group up for raids. Almost everything in the games makes you want to be max level and raid, whether it's the draw of grouping with 10-20 other people or the allure of shiny purple items. Casual players don't even want to be in the mid-levels, they're just stuck there for longer. No one has ever played an MMO and thought, "wow, level 27 is amazing! Now I can [insert something cool here]!" and then stayed that level for a week or month. In every game, when you hit level 27 your only thought is, "now I just need 28 and only X more levels til max, then I can raid!" That's why crazy people play 36 hours straight through in new games, to get max level before anyone else and if the lower levels are just filler (really, you learn to play the game control/mechanic wise in the first 10-15 levels), then why even have them. Just let people start at 50 and be done with it.

This a thousand times. Perhaps level-less is the way to go?

[Chieling]

This a thousand times. Perhaps level-less is the way to go?
The issue i can see then would be how many "skill points or skill levels" you have as a determinant... Even if u dont use levels to get skill-ups, and u get skills on a "as u use them basis" then youre still having something simular to a level disparity.

[Wanton]

What made EQ leveling so different is a few factors that are missing and/or different nowadays.

Obviously, the first thing is sheer amount of time it took to level. We all have our own stories of how we spent X amount of hours to watch our XP bars barely budge. I'm not saying this was a good design, but people spent so much time with their class that you could assume that most had an idea of what they were doing. This also meant that people were actually spending TIME in lower level zones and becoming intimately familiar with it. How many of us could still run through High Hold Keep today even after 10 years? Or know the way past Juggs to Trak? Well, maybe not all of you retards but I'm sure a good majority.

Secondly, EQ had that fear factor added to progression. For example, I remember when I first hit level 42 and had to think about if I wanted to chance going to LGuk in fear of losing my shit. I think this type of concept can (gradually at least) hinder that barrel headed rush to 50. It also makes people do things like socialize. If you think about it, WoW's cross server,auto-grouping ability crushed socialization out of the mix completely. I don't have to talk to anyone to get a group, I can be a complete douche and I can just quit if I don't like the run. All with zero consequence because they're all on different servers anyway.


That being said; I think you should keep these concepts in mind while formulating your game. Remember, UO didn't have levels either, it was all skill points based and it worked "ok". I believe the level based system still works, you just have to create the environment correctly so people enjoy these levels and have content to fully experience it. Also, rather than just auto awarding base state adjustments and new "talent points", perhaps look at a D&D or Gurps hybrid in which people can dedicate skill points (or attribute points at certain levels), so they can truly build their character up. You may want to also consider not using Lv50 as the "end cap". Perhaps something as low as 20? That will disperse more population in a smaller pool granting more social and plain grouping opportunities. This could directly impact how your community interacts all together.

Z

[Wilmore]

I have had an idea for a while now but I do not know if its even feasible. How many times have you maxxed out a character or wanted to try a new character only to run the same damn quests over and over, is there a way to make dynamic questing? By that i mean if you start a new character somehow it could randomly generate quests to run or from a pool of quests randomly pick which ones are available to you. I dunno it sounds like a database nightmare but thought it might be a cool idea.

[Chieling]

Also, rather than just auto awarding base state adjustments and new "talent points", perhaps look at a D&D or Gurps hybrid in which people can dedicate skill points (or attribute points at certain levels), so they can truly build their character up.

a bit more detail on that plz Zhao

I have had an idea for a while now ........... it sounds like a database nightmare but thought it might be a cool idea.

Wilmore - not as bad as youd think. and its something that we are tryin to build into our quest system actually.

[nathan]

- Make it so you can change your "alliance"; In WoW terms, say I created an Orc warrior. I should be able to go Hostile with the Horde and go neutral with Alliance, presuming I haven't done anything to net me negative reputation. Of course, earning rep with Stormwind would be harder (And you'd start neutral as opposed to friendly), but make it so that PEOPLE choose their alliances, rather than having your race put you in a predetermined alliance. Nothing should prevent me from being a horde spy if I wish.

On top of that, this "as one goes up, the other goes down" reputation scheme is stupid. It should be possible in many cases to earn reputation with one faction without damaging the rep of another. Why can't I be my own force, as the Gandhi of WoW, trusted on both sides?

[Chieling]

@Nathan

We have no plans for "alliance". Each race will have their own set of faction - different from everyone else - so that the player can do with it what they will. That being said, there is nothing in place yet from stopping an Orc getting to "Allied" to ,lets say, the Elvish race.

[Runihura]

Make a bleach mmo.

[Burgun]

I would like to see an MMO set in a specific timeline, but give the option for players to jump to past or future timelines for ability upgrades, lore quests, and leveling up.

[Chieling]

we dont have plans for time travel atm, but we DO have plans for a player effected timeLINE.