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View Poll Results: Obama: Great President or Greatest President?
OMG! The Greatest President! 5 9.43%
Great President 4 7.55%
Meh. We'll see. 15 28.30%
Ahh, I envy the blissful stupor of your naivete ... 3 5.66%
Damn Socialists! 14 26.42%
God. Politics?? ULDUAR! 12 22.64%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-19-2009, 03:33 PM   #41
Gynon
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Average president so far. Good in some areas, terrible in others, such as national security. The United States will definitely suffer another terrorist attack while he is in office. His handling of the CIA has been absolutely terrible. I also strongly disagree with his ban on enhanced interrogation. He needs to realize the people being "interrogated" aren't human. They are animals and should be treated as such. Obama comes off as soft.
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Old 04-19-2009, 03:45 PM   #42
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Voted for Nader '08 because I "had" to vote. Wish there was a garbage option or something that says "you voted, good for you" then tosses it in a hobo's can-fire.
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Old 04-19-2009, 04:21 PM   #43
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Originally Posted by Gynon View Post
The United States will definitely suffer another terrorist attack while he is in office.
Statiscly speaking I would be surprised if it didn't happen no matter who the President is:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm
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Old 04-19-2009, 05:31 PM   #44
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Originally Posted by Ogmuk View Post
Statiscly speaking I would be surprised if it didn't happen no matter who the President is:
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm
Gynon was talking about a "major" terrorist attack I assume.
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:04 AM   #45
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Yes, because Bush obviously protected the USA from terrorists, instead of just giving those people easier targets closer to home. I'm sure Homeland Security is the reason we haven't had another 3k dead. Then again, I'd be interested in seeing how many extra people die because we attempted to print our way out of a recession, we continue to enact more and more regulation and social nets to somehow protect people, all the while continuing to work on America's little empire and running a nice, big deficit.

Of course, I'm sure the terrorists only ever would dare target the US because of its freedom and liberty. Not because we spend decades in these countries messing with their lives, not because we helped them get themselves killed against Saddam, the USSR, or other groups, warlords, and nations. Perhaps the easiest way to stop being a target for terrorists is to stop killing people in terrorist nations who had nothing to really do with it in the first place? Perhaps it is to stop going over to other nations, treating them like shit, and then expecting them to be good little American sycophants.

While I most definitely do not support Obama, nor do I believe his policies are going to work, I find calling him soft on terrorists relatively laughable. How many major terrorist attacks occurred on US soil prior to the first Persian Gulf War, which most likely was entirely preventable anyways? And then, I also have the worry that what can be used against others can be used against oneself. For instance, the executive powers taken by the Bush administration and cheered on by Republicans now are too much when it is a Democrat who holds them. This cycle repeats itself and probably will again, unless there is an actual plan to be different among Republicans, since I doubt a third party will garner enough support to actually make a run. But I can hope, can't I? Maybe I'll run as an anarchist.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:38 PM   #46
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

So why would you fuel the world more by releasing classified memo after memo describing CIA officials torturing prisoners, as if the entire world doesn't do the same thing. I'm sure when American troops are captured they get served chicken dinners and wine. It just doesn't make sense that the President keeps releasing memo's making it seem like the CIA is made up of monsters and showing the world how evil the United States is.
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Old 04-20-2009, 07:05 PM   #47
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Originally Posted by Tryst View Post
Perhaps the easiest way to stop being a target for terrorists is to stop killing people in terrorist nations who had nothing to really do with it in the first place? Perhaps it is to stop going over to other nations, treating them like shit, and then expecting them to be good little American sycophants.
America, FUCK YEAH!
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Old 04-20-2009, 09:36 PM   #48
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

I find it more interesting that we fund other Nation's wars.


Truman Doctrine<-----

America = National Police (Perspectivly by many presidents)

As for the whole terror thing, prolly since our government just loves saying, "YOUR VIEW IS WRONG, MY VIEW IS RIGHT, (war happens), WHAT NOW, WHAT NOW, YA, NOW WHOS RIGHT!"

Ow and the US doesn't like independent countries who aren't like the US.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Gynon, I simply have doubts that the release of how the CIA or whoever tortured a some people is going to create a new and more sinister backlash than already exists. Most people have known or heard that the US tortures prisoners starting back in Abu Ghraib in 2004 or so. Then we had the sites in other countries, the waterboarding, the defense of waterboarding by Cheney which continues to this day, I just don't see the release of how the US waterboarded a couple guys 250 some odd times is going to suddenly be the spark that starts a renewed fight. They already have plenty to be pissed about without worrying about specifics.

Sure, could this be added on to the list giving it more specifics? Certainly. But I'm kind of doubtful terrorist organizations are going to get that specific in their denunciations of America, rather than simply putting down how America has tortured thousands of people, gotten thousands killed in Iraq, left Afghanistan as soon as the Soviets were beaten, leaving the Afghanis to pick up the rubble, etc. etc.

And before anyone comes in here and calls me some Arab sympathizer, I do not condone any of the terrorist actions conducted by...well, anyone. But at the same time, I do not believe that they are acting against the US because of our freedom or jealousy, but instead as a reaction to policies and actions taken by the US.
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Old 04-21-2009, 02:51 PM   #50
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

An interesting report that came out today. I'll let you judge it for yourselves

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/conten...x?RsrcID=46949

The point of the report (gleaned from information release about the CIA by the Obama administration) is that Khalid Sheik Mohammed was waterboarded. The result was that he revealed information about a planned 9/11 style attack on Los Angeles and the location of the cell that was suppose to carry out the attack. This information led to the cell's leader being captured and the thwarting of this planned attack.

This is very much "means v outcome" question. The means was waterboarding an Al Qaeda top official versus the outcome of thwarting a second 9/11 attack on Los Angeles.
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Old 04-21-2009, 03:01 PM   #51
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

I have to agree with Gynon. While I applaud Obama's stance on dealing with Pakistan, this new water-boarding ordeal is completely sad. He obviously knows the scenario but is playing the popular vote card by not sticking up for past actions. Furthermore, the information gained from those 'detainees' shouldn't be shared with the public. Why would we feed everyone our own intel? Realize this isn't happy-happy land and there's a reason why great leaders still read The Art of War, twenty five hundred years later!

Quite simply, what and how the CIA operates isn't the business of the general public. Hampering our ability to protect ourselves should be one of the last ideas on our agenda. The release of the documents is totally a politically (aka TV popularity these days) motivated front to try and push more blame to a prior Administration. Let's focus on new shit and stop wasting time and money on stuff that actually saved American lives.

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Old 04-21-2009, 04:26 PM   #52
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Obama and his administration is like 3 or 4 school girls bickering amongst each other, constantly attacking the former administation and making OUR country look bad to the rest of the world just to make themselves look good! Because the American people want CHANGE! Change what? Change the best country in the world that has the longest political running in history? I understand that as time marches on that we will need to tweak the laws and rules as a whole, but, OUR forefathers knew what was up, this one administration (current) can and will turn this County in certain directions that we will never recover from IMO! All for the price of CHANGE! LMAO Most of the American people aren't just idiots, they have no clue to what is to come. I will be shocked if Obama is still alive by the end of his TERM! He has no respect for this Country at all!
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Old 04-21-2009, 05:21 PM   #53
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Well, the problem is now the Bush administration officials who green lighted the use of enhanced interrogation procedures might get prosecuted because of it. So I think he was a damn idiot for releasing those memos.
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:05 PM   #54
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Originally Posted by Gynon View Post
Well, the problem is now the Bush administration officials who green lighted the use of enhanced interrogation procedures might get prosecuted because of it. So I think he was a damn idiot for releasing those memos.

Again, like I said, he (Obama) has no respect for this Country!
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Old 04-21-2009, 06:12 PM   #55
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

On a side note, have you ever noticed that Obama always says uhh at least 1 or 2 times every sentence? Sometimes 4 or 5 times, I cant believe the American people elected this Dumbass for President.

75% of the voters aged 18-25 voted for Obama because he knew how to use a Blackberry, lol
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:27 PM   #56
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?



Someone photoshop this shit, quickly.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:02 AM   #57
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

So Gynon, you believe torture is perfectly acceptable. I completely and unequivocally disagree for a number of reasons. First, it is against the law as it violates a persons' rights. Second, the information gained from torture is commonly useless and wrong. The tortured often say what they think the torturer wants to hear. Third, once you allow the government to begin torturing one group, you have lost any real defense to allowing the government to torture other groups. Typically under a Republican administration, left wing groups are made out as enemies, under a Democrat right wing, and if you let the government begin torturing, it will not stop with one or two terrorist leaders. Once a government gains a power to do something, it will fight tooth and nail to retain that power and expand it. One need only look at the history of the US government, especially post-Civil War.

Now, the argument that because we supposedly discovered a plot with torture, therefore torture is good is not very good logic either. It is based on the assumption that under no other circumstance would we have been able to discover this plot and that this plot was in fact a real plot and not just a potential brain child, something that torture often does net as the tortured attempts to please. Finally, I would argue that losing another 3-5 thousand people in a terrorist attack is better than giving the government the ability to torture those it is able to demonize and ignore the rights of. As horrible as losing the three thousand plus on 9/11 was, how does it justify the deaths of many times that number of innocent civilians, just because they're not American? Or that more Americans have died attempting to extract so called justice than died in the actual attack.

As for prosecution, yes, I believe they should be prosecuted. No government official or representative should ever have immunity or safety for what they do in office or while representing the government, not politicians, not police, not judges, no one. If they choose to ignore the law and perform criminal actions, they need to be held accountable for their actions before a jury. Do I think it'll really happen? Probably not, the government tends to protect its own.
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Old 04-24-2009, 12:38 PM   #58
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Originally Posted by Tryst View Post
Now, the argument that because we supposedly discovered a plot with torture, therefore torture is good is not very good logic either. It is based on the assumption that under no other circumstance would we have been able to discover this plot and that this plot was in fact a real plot and not just a potential brain child, something that torture often does net as the tortured attempts to please. Finally, I would argue that losing another 3-5 thousand people in a terrorist attack is better than giving the government the ability to torture those it is able to demonize and ignore the rights of. As horrible as losing the three thousand plus on 9/11 was, how does it justify the deaths of many times that number of innocent civilians, just because they're not American? Or that more Americans have died attempting to extract so called justice than died in the actual attack.
I tend to agree with you Tryst. I presented the report as an interesting read. I firmly fall on the side of the means do not justify the ends. Nor do I agree with using Iraq as a proxy of the US for terrorist who want to attack the US (which I firmly believe was one of the reasons - unstated - that we went into Iraq). Personally, I do not want the US using "enhanced interrogation" techniques.

Many on the right will point to that report and say "see, look what we prevented." Likewise, the left will point to that report and say "look what we've become." On 9/12/01 though, I'm glad I didn't have to make the decision of waterboarding terrorist leaders versus watching planes (or worse) fly into Los Angeles, Boston, or Miami.

This is a link to an image showing the 2nd explosion at the WTC. It is still very hard to look at and I decided to link to it instead of posting it directly in the thread.
http://www.nocaptionneeded.com/wp-co...9/wtc-9-11.jpg
On 9/12, George Bush woke up having to make sure this never happened again. I don't condone everything he did, I certainly understand why he did them.
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Old 04-24-2009, 01:52 PM   #59
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Wow 3 pages... you've created a monster. canada ftw.
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Old 04-24-2009, 03:18 PM   #60
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Default Re: Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

Against the law to torture captured enemy combatants? Are we now binding everyone to the Geneva Convention because I seem to recall several other people not signing up for that!

Torture has been used for thousands of years, to write it off as an non-effective source of intelligence gathering would be very short sighted. Granting torture rights really becomes an issue because of the chance of corruption. The possibility that the Government would abuse that power really scares people out of being practical and thus this never ending debate on the morality of torture. I don't think anyone here has the motivation or desire to argue another 10 pages to a stand still.

In my opinion, they'd (terrorists in general) do it to Americans in half a heartbeat. Some may want to comment with the typical "Take the higher road.." response, but to those people I will say, do some time in a real combat zone and tell me if it's worth the trade off.

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