Obama: Great President or The Greatest President?

[Gynon]

I am for it if the military/gov't believes the prisoner is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of being a terrorist.

[Scarhead]

Originally Posted by Tryst

So Gynon, you believe torture is perfectly acceptable. I completely and unequivocally disagree for a number of reasons. First, it is against the law as it violates a persons' rights. Second, the information gained from torture is commonly useless and wrong. The tortured often say what they think the torturer wants to hear. Third, once you allow the government to begin torturing one group, you have lost any real defense to allowing the government to torture other groups. Typically under a Republican administration, left wing groups are made out as enemies, under a Democrat right wing, and if you let the government begin torturing, it will not stop with one or two terrorist leaders. Once a government gains a power to do something, it will fight tooth and nail to retain that power and expand it. One need only look at the history of the US government, especially post-Civil War.

Now, the argument that because we supposedly discovered a plot with torture, therefore torture is good is not very good logic either. It is based on the assumption that under no other circumstance would we have been able to discover this plot and that this plot was in fact a real plot and not just a potential brain child, something that torture often does net as the tortured attempts to please. Finally, I would argue that losing another 3-5 thousand people in a terrorist attack is better than giving the government the ability to torture those it is able to demonize and ignore the rights of. As horrible as losing the three thousand plus on 9/11 was, how does it justify the deaths of many times that number of innocent civilians, just because they're not American? Or that more Americans have died attempting to extract so called justice than died in the actual attack.

As for prosecution, yes, I believe they should be prosecuted. No government official or representative should ever have immunity or safety for what they do in office or while representing the government, not politicians, not police, not judges, no one. If they choose to ignore the law and perform criminal actions, they need to be held accountable for their actions before a jury. Do I think it'll really happen? Probably not, the government tends to protect its own.

I know that I don't know you very well Tryst, but I totally disagree with you, you left wing advocates always trying to protect the enemies till it happens to one of your loved ones!

Imagine for once if 9/11 included your wife, husban, kids, friends, loved ones, mother, father, brother, daughter. These terrorist people are mass murderers.

This is the worst presidential admin. in history IMO. The whole Obama family is stupid, He shakes enemies hands, she hugs a Queen (lol) they give mp3 players to kings as a present (lmao) and now they want to prosicute former goverment officials for saving more American lives, I guess this is a good example of how everyone is different and has different beliefs, personally I say torture them all for any info., and then the simple term of Kill them all, comes to my mind. I know its harsh and barbaric but to me better the enemy than American citizens.

If this left wing approach continues, we won't even have organizations such as the CIA, FBI, and such forth. There members will be to afraid to do there jobs.

[Seiga]

Originally Posted by Scarhead

I know that I don't know you very well Tryst, but I totally disagree with you, you left wing advocates always trying to protect the enemies till it happens to one of your loved ones!

Imagine for once if 9/11 included your wife, husban, kids, friends, loved ones, mother, father, brother, daughter. These terrorist people are mass murderers.

This is the worst presidential admin. in history IMO. The whole Obama family is stupid, He shakes enemies hands, she hugs a Queen (lol) they give mp3 players to kings as a present (lmao) and now they want to prosicute former goverment officials for saving more American lives, I guess this is a good example of how everyone is different and has different beliefs, personally I say torture them all for any info., and then the simple term of Kill them all, comes to my mind. I know its harsh and barbaric but to me better the enemy than American citizens.

If this left wing approach continues, we won't even have organizations such as the CIA, FBI, and such forth. There members will be to afraid to do there jobs.

These are the reasons why politics and gaming should never exist in this guild! ESPECIALLY COMMENTS LIKE THIS. IRC is already bad as it is with it, and it severely disgusts me.


~Seiga.

[Ogmuk]

Yep, I'm with Tens. Comments like those makes me uncomfortable knowing I'm in the guild with extremists. Apparently not everyone can keep the discussion at an intelligent level, so let's just not discuss politics at all, alright?

[Gynon]

What severely disgusts you?

[Scarhead]

Originally Posted by Ogmuk

Yep, I'm with Tens. Comments like those makes me uncomfortable knowing I'm in the guild with extremists. Apparently not everyone can keep the discussion at an intelligent level, so let's just not discuss politics at all, alright?

Ok, since I can't keep an intelligent discussion with you all (meaning I'm not intellegent) I will not post on these forums again!

I will say this in closing though, we (America) was attacked with intent to kill, they hit not only the world trade center, but also the pentagon, and the forth jet was going toward the whitehouse! To me this is WAR! The Bush Admin. had to decide in a swift manner as to how to handle this huge problem and for the most part I believe they did a very good job.

In closing my final post I'll also say that I am also against war , murder, terror, bullying, or any other conflicting situation! But till there is no more conflict in the world there has to be some kind of punishment for those kind of actions!

Edit: I didn't mean kill them all as in kill all of a particular race but as in any organized group that is killing innocent people because of a conflict of a religious belief.

[Seiga]

Originally Posted by Gynon

What severely disgusts you?

The fact that there are topics on IRC, political, that can get too "extreme"

~Seiga

[Cazzeo]

Originally Posted by Scarhead

Ok, since I can't keep an intelligent discussion with you all (meaning I'm not intellegent) I will not post on these forums again!

Should just keep in mind that Da`Kor is a large guild with many members and a long history. This means, statistically, the political views of its members likely run the gamut from conservative to liberal and every flavor in between. Out of respect for the tag, if for no other reason, it's best to refrain (on either side) from implying that any one range of the political spectrum is filled with idiots, as doing so likely insults/alienates a significant percentage of people.

Get a lot more mileage out of presenting your views and providing support for those arguments rather than disparaging the views of others and approaching the problem from a negative perspective. (i.e. "I support the conservative position and here's why" goes a lot farther than "obama is the worst president in history"). One way might get leftists to entertain your arguments. The latter approach won't do anything except cause hackles to rise.

And Tryst as a leftist advocate. Lol, I about spewed Mountain Dew into my screen. Clearly you're right that you don't know him

[Seiga]

Originally Posted by Scarhead

Ok, since I can't keep an intelligent discussion with you all (meaning I'm not intellegent) I will not post on these forums again!

Scarhead, you're a great player there's no doubt about that. You, Levi, and Fati are fantastic at what you do as a hunter class. But in this discussion, there's just too many Obama attacks to be had.

What i'm more shocked is how this thread is turning out to be among everyone else. Ayania, let's be honest here, If I created a thread like this over a year ago, there would only be a one word reply from you that I would get.

"Stupid."

And it is exactly that. You will never get anything friendly out of politics.


~Seiga.

[Kerthud]

Well everyone is in a differnt stage of life having differnt beliefs, values, moral, ethics and ideals. We also live very different kinds of lifes. Ie some of us are in good situations some bad, some rich some poor, some open some closed perspectives. Politics allows everyone to have their own interpretation based off information and data that they have gathered or interpreted their own way, so much so that even multiple people seeing the same info will take it differently.

I take politics as a grain of salt and most people prolly should, politics shouldn't be discussed as though its a religion or such as im trying to force you to try my choice of beverage. It should be viewed more as "this is the kind of drink i chose", whats your view on it and what kind do you like.

When it gets down to it there is no black and white right or wrong perspective, too serious or not. Its all a huge combination of judgement calls and shades of gray.

Also scar I thought your post was interesting and you shouldn't quit posting cause some one has a differnt view then you or thinks your an "extreemist" beause in or for you to be an extreemest in their perspecitce they have obviously seen their side extreemests from their own perspective.

Also scar since I <3 you and you know it, you spelt intelligent wrong =P in your post.

Im sure I have alot of spelling errors and typos in this post since I typed it really fast without using shift to cap all my I's.

That being said i kind of see it from both perspectives, I think its wrong that Gov officials are being prosecuted for doing their job to prevent terrorism. Then again i go back to eye for an eye, if they were planning or did help in causing huge damage to innocent people fuck em. They deserve everything they got. Though i otherwise feel obama hasn't done anything huge wrong, gifts are gifts and him doing so generaly makes him look better. I mean think he was on one of the Night talk shows, which is a first of all the presidents. It seems like hes trying to be more of a "peoples president". As for me i have no linear perspective, though i apreciate so far all the good reads from posts as it is always nice to know how other people precieve things.

[Scarhead]

Originally Posted by Kerthud

Also scar since I <3 you and you know it, you spelt intelligent wrong =P in your post.

LOL so I did.

Edit:= My apologies to anyone I may have offended, but I do take my country being attacked very serious and I don't feel there's no sitting down and talking with these guys (Taliban and Al Quada)! They are not human they are savages IMHO! <----------------- notice in MY opinion. I could go on but believe me I will not and you all have my word that I will not again touch on politics or religion. Again sorry for being so passionate about attacks on my country.

[Ashius]

being against torture does not make you left wing, which i believe tryst is not anyway.

[Coldwynd]

Originally Posted by Chifari

And Tryst as a leftist advocate. Lol, I about spewed Mountain Dew into my screen. Clearly you're right that you don't know him

If Tryst is a left wing advocate, I don't want to know what that makes me
Perhaps I'm the Che Gueavara to his Fidel Castro

[Kerthud]

That dead guy? Who convinced lots of young scholars to attempt to rebel against their governments and cost tons of young scholars their lives?

My opinion of Gueavara.

[Coldwynd]

Originally Posted by Kerthud

That dead guy? Who convinced lots of young scholars to attempt to rebel against their governments and cost tons of young scholars their lives?

My opinion of Gueavara.

Sigh
I deserve that for making jokes on the internet

[Kerthud]

I would prefer to think perhaps your Robin to his batman.

Im just not a fan of che, sorries. Was kinda a good joke tho.

[Cazzeo]

Originally Posted by Kerthud

I would prefer to think perhaps your Robin to his batman.

Gary to his Ace?

[Aune]

Originally Posted by Scarhead

personally I say torture them all for any info., and then the simple term of Kill them all, comes to my mind. I know its harsh and barbaric but to me better the enemy than American citizens.

I agree wholeheartedly since it's happening to random Muslims and not me. (sarcasm)

P.S. And Tens, honestly if everyone shied away from every 'sensitive' topic (political, religious, etc) then there would be nothing interesting to talk about.

[Vittra]

Originally Posted by Tenseiga

Scarhead, you're a great player there's no doubt about that.

hahahaha.

[Seiga]

Originally Posted by Aune

I agree wholeheartedly since it's happening to random Muslims and not me. (sarcasm)

P.S. And Tens, honestly if everyone shied away from every 'sensitive' topic (political, religious, etc) then there would be nothing interesting to talk about.

I didn't say every SENSITIVE topic, I said Political and Gaming don't mix. People have opinions, I agree, but then people are fucking radical with some discussions that it just seems to be inappropriate. A few months ago, I was told by someone in IRC that some people even talked about Assassination?!?!? I mean, WTF are people seriously smoking... Joking or not, I really don't give a shit, that should never be a topic of discussion ever. It's vile, cruel, and pathetic.

There's sensitive topics.. and there are fucking morons that can't get their head out of their asses.


~Seiga.